Belldread33: how do you know about it?
Stsumner: did i ever tell you that my middle name is “stalker”
Belldread33: wow… well, right on..it does me well to know that my latest (lamest?) sentiments are far-reaching…and to good people at that..
Belldread33: i’d love to hear some of your comments… provided you have time and comments.
Stsumner: if u must know, the link was on one of the frisbee emails u sent
Belldread33: oh, words… you received a frisbee email?
Stsumner: yep, i’m on that mailing list for the tosa frisbee thing
Stsumner: i’ll try to post something on your website sometime
Stsumner: i have my thoughts
Belldread33: cool man…
Stsumner: like for the omnipotent god with no arms
Belldread33: I’ve kinda been really sparatic lately
Belldread33: my life is in utter chaos… not shambles…just chaos.
Stsumner: GRE?
Belldread33: yeah, about that…
Belldread33: i messed it up
Belldread33: I’m mean, who am I kidding
Belldread33: I’m stressed out, malnourished, add and sleep-deprived
Stsumner: well, those tests just need to be studied for, then you’ll rock it
Belldread33: of course I can’t focus on reading comprehension
Belldread33: right.. about the whole study aspect ..not my thing… I just went in and took it.
Stsumner: Grandma Sumner says……you put too many irons in the oven, none of them will get hot
Belldread33: I’m confused?
Belldread33: don’t you plug irons in?
Belldread33: you’re grandma is old school, dawg.
Stsumner: apparently they used to heat lead irons by putting them in the stove
Belldread33: (i’m mean, I’m there, Steve.)
Stsumner: modern translation: a person can only do so many things
Belldread33: are you saying if you do too many things, few if any will be complete? or go well?
Stsumner: yep…but i could be wrong
Belldread33: well, it makes sense… it’s that type of grounded perspective that my blog lacks.
Stsumner: there’s nothing wrong with exhausting yourself, provided the cause is worthy
Belldread33: true…what if you’re not sure about the cause?
Belldread33: and just working hard cuz its on your plate?
Stsumner: you dont always need to know where you’re going to get there
Belldread33: but that can often make ‘there’ arbitrary
Belldread33: which I’m fine with, as long as I’m happy.
Belldread33: (to be honest)
Stsumner: happiness is not the goal, being purposeful is, read the gospels, its striking how often Christ gets sad
Belldread33: wait a minute…lets back this whole conversation up…. are you telling me that you are up at 6:30 in the morning with extra time to peruse a sloppy website?
Stsumner: no, just printing something off, then ryan said hello
Belldread33: two things: 1) I haven’t spent nearly, if any time in reading scripture, and probably should, 2) how am I to see myself in the light of christ?
Belldread33: well, I was almost flattered.
Belldread33: but, that makes sense.
Stsumner: what do u mean “how are u supposed to see yourself”
Belldread33: hmm…. i wonder, at times, if I have expectations for myself, and whether I’m living up to them
Belldread33: how am i supposed to see myself against my own concept of progress.
Belldread33: (i think is what I’m really trying to get at)
Stsumner: i think one of the most important realizations we can come to is to see just how utterly incapable and full of failure we are
Belldread33: you think?
Belldread33: how Nietzschian.
Stsumner: take the case of the rich young man in the gospels
Belldread33: (again, not familiar)
Stsumner: he asks christ what he can do to get to heaven
Stsumner: jesus keeps asking more and more of him until he gives up
Belldread33: gives up?
Stsumner: and walks away
Stsumner: contrast that to the other interactions that christ has with people
Stsumner: ….
Belldread33: isn’t there something to be said for persevernance? Would it have been different had he not asked Christ specifically? Or if the man wasn’t concerned about getting into heaven, but rather finding happiness in living for other people?
Belldread33: you’re suggesting Christ doesn’t push people in those ways often?
Belldread33: or rather, Christ gives people specific challenges to engage their specific needs? I’m confused.
Stsumner: problem was that he asked “what can I do to get to heaven” (emphasis on the I)
Stsumner: jesus kept challenging him to show him that he could never go far enough or do enough to earn heaven
Stsumner: no one could be perfect enough
Stsumner: all he had to do was ask
Belldread33: well, that’s the point right…
Belldread33: ask to be in heaven?
Belldread33: what if you never ask, because you have your reasons, but you live a good life —- and, possibly, are seen as living a life of christian vocation?
Stsumner: right, ask for salvation, forgiveness, its a free gift
Stsumner: some people ask without ever explicitly asking
Belldread33: you think? how so?
Belldread33: I mean, how does that work, Steve? that doesn’t make sense
Belldread33: so many religions specifically say that you must initiate that conversation
Stsumner: i’m just saying that some people recognize their fundamental need for God without ever verbalizing it, its in their heart
Stsumner: God isnt legalistic
Belldread33: what if your heart is fundamentally questioning God.
Stsumner: questioning is good, its the only way to get answers, he asks us to seek him
Belldread33: sure, but fleshing out philosophical perplexities isn’t necessarily opening yourself up to god, and certainly not asking him to be in your life, or asking for salvation.
Stsumner: well, my suggestion is just to study everything, every religion, and see which one has the best answers to those questions
Belldread33: The other day, gwen gave me a very interesting quote, that may be helpful
Stsumner: but a person will really have to study, and no one today really dusts off the good book anymore
Belldread33: originally from a very special person in my life, the quote reads:
Here’s that quote I mentioned, I added the
preceeding context as well:
“Religion is like language or dress. We gravitate toward the practices with
which we were raised. In the end, though, we are all proclaiming the same
thing. That life has meaning. That we are grateful for the power that
created us.”
Langon was intrigued. “So, you’re saying that whether you are a Christian or
a Mulsim simply depends on where you were born?”
“Isn’t it obvious? Look at the diffusion of religion around the globe.”
“So faith is random?”
“Hardly. Faith is universal. Our specific methods for understanding it are
arbitrary. Some of us pray to Jesus, some of us go to Mecca, some of us study
subatomic particles. In the end we are all just searching for truth, that
which is greater than ourselves.”
Belldread33: I think your comment is true that the bible has been a lost focus in contemporary western thought.
Stsumner: good quote, and as for the bible, yah i agree, too often our opinions aren’t based on anything or researched very well, they are just nonsense we subconsciously picked up somewhere from watching too many episodes of the “o.c.”
Belldread33: which I’ve refrained from interacting with.
Stsumner: i know, there’s no time to watch tv anymore
Stsumner: which is probably a good thing also
Belldread33: well, if you’re using your time well, TV really falls out of the picture anyway.
Belldread33: exactly.
Stsumner: about your quote…
Stsumner: ever heard to joseph campbell
Belldread33: hmmm….
Stsumner: professor of mythology out of nyc
Belldread33: wait a minute…right..
Belldread33: no, I haven’t
Stsumner: died last year maybe
Belldread33: are you sure, or is that a myth?
Belldread33: (ok, yeah, unnecessary)
Stsumner: he wrote a book on the symbolic similarities of the religions….very interesting
Stsumner: wish i remembered the title
Belldread33: definitely applicable…. but its where people find ‘religion’ in pure secular pursuits that interests me…
Belldread33: is it fair to put ‘subatomic particles’ as an equal pursuit towards meaning and truth?
Stsumner: notice how religion can quickly get self-seeking
Belldread33: and you don’t think it should be?
Stsumner: ……”I want to figure out the truth, i want happiness,” etc
Belldread33: but it is the self seeking, right
Belldread33: what are we seeking then?
Stsumner: i think the more we remove “I” from the equation, the more truth we will find
Belldread33: if were not concerned with truth (and I know you haven’t suggested that here), is there anything worth being concerned of?
Belldread33: or rather, worthy of our concerns?
Belldread33: I’m struggling with (and probably always will) what I should focus on…
Stsumner: is it possible the most persistent question in our life should be “how can i serve the most”
Belldread33: my happiness with ultimate? my passion for scholarly study? My desire for fiancial stability? the perfect love? My relationship with an intangible ominpotent, omni-Everything?
Belldread33: sure, but when does service become selfish?
Belldread33: there’s that whole age-old belief that altruism doesn’t exist.
Belldread33: I think that skepticism applies.
Stsumner: the beautiful thing about service is that whether its selfish or not, others will still be helped
Belldread33: I like ultimate for how I feel, but I know that my involvments serve others, in the same way that I feel enriched by others as well.
Belldread33: Steve, you believe in free will?
Stsumner: i need to study up on that subject more before i can say something insightful on that, i don’t want to just say some opinion i havent thought hard about
Belldread33: understandable
Belldread33: I’m sure your answer would be the same if I were to ask you if you believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing God, right?
Belldread33: which is certainly something from the good book,no less…
Stsumner: i do agree with that statement
Belldread33: well, where i’m going with my interrogation is rather simple.
Belldread33: you understand that having free will and having an all-powerful God are plagued with logical contradictions that the human mind can’t transcend… does this concern you in the least?
Belldread33: are we not meant to ever see religion with complete objective clarity? is that the nature of faith? …. why?
Stsumner: is it possible to know without understanding?
Stsumner: and instead of using the word faith, maybe substitute trust in there, its simpler to understand
Belldread33: that’s a plausible alternative form of the same question, what do you think?
Stsumner: my question is this….say you figure out all the answers to all the questions, then what
Stsumner: is that the end
Belldread33: no, I guess not.
Stsumner: i would say that knowledge is a means, not an end
Belldread33: unless, the end is, “heaven and God don’t exist”
Belldread33: then, hell breaks loose…or we keep on believing.
Stsumner: what do you think
Belldread33: hmmm….
Belldread33: I don’t live wondering about it..at least, I don’t live concerned about my relationship with God, or whether one exists… it’s funny… I don’t really recognize God, but I might be quick to thank him for things… there’s always things that seem to be happening out of my control, and it seems befitting to thank something, or someone, even if its just a matter of looking up into the infinite sky, and saying, “Thank you!”
Belldread33: but I would never ask anything of God.
Belldread33: I would never put expectations on God, or have hopes that I’m praying for God to answer…
Belldread33: (never is probably an unrealistic word, but i try not to anyway)
Stsumner: that may be good, prayer isn’t really about getting, its about connecting, its about relationship
Belldread33: I assume that’s what you think as well?
Stsumner: yes, its what i think
Stsumner: or wait, think about what
Belldread33: you tell me, I was just answering and re-iterating your question, “what do you think?”
Belldread33: either about hell breaking loose, or knowledge as a means
Belldread33: but I chose to explain my thoughts about finding all the answers …
Belldread33: my take was, I’m not really looking.
Stsumner: there’s a lot of uneducated people who are better people than those of us in universities (thats a testiment to the fact that knowledge is neutral…to be used for good or evil), and as for God, my friend, we are all looking….even if it be in subatomic particles
Belldread33: good reference. Perhaps.
Belldread33: but the real question remains, does God have arms?
Stsumner: if he does, maybe he’d smack us upside the head for spending our time on such questions while a quarter of the world is malnourished
Belldread33: interesting manipulation of tone.
Belldread33: the world’s issues are grave, I’ll agree…but I’m not sure what to make of it…
Stsumner: i am joking though, i hope that didn’t sound too cruel, asking questions about Gods arms are good too
Stsumner: its funny what the bible has to say about that question….its not as clear cut as we might have learned in catechism class
Belldread33: I’m taking a class right now, philosophy of religion, and we talk about how an all-compassionate God could allow for so much suffering, and worse, ‘evil’
Stsumner: because a greater evil would be to force us to do good
Belldread33: again, the bible (which I really haven’t read) doesn’t seem to be very clear cut on this issue.
Belldread33: you think?
Belldread33: so evil is a result of our free will?
Stsumner: suffering on this earth is temporary, it pales in comparison to the time span of eternity
Belldread33: which is supposed to be sufferless?
Stsumner: i think we choose evil sometimes,
Stsumner: i know i do occasionally
Belldread33: i know you do too.
Stsumner: thanks, conscience
Belldread33: no problem, self.
Belldread33: I would argue, more people have done evil things in the name of religion than not
Stsumner: that is also why God (with arms) is using his hands to slap his forehead, cuz we just don’t get it , that’s why we need a savior and cant do it ourself….back to the beginning of our conversation
Stsumner: everytime we try to do “religion”, we mess it up
Belldread33: now, i haven’t read that in any scripture…
Belldread33: I just don’t know when its appropriate to look to the book for answers, and when its okay to know where the book went wrong….
Stsumner: well the first time i read the new testament, i wrote down all the questions i had, about five pages worth, back and front
Stsumner: the questions get answered, one by one
Belldread33: every question?
Belldread33: well, i understand the analogy…
Belldread33: but answers are (often?) different then truth and meaning
Stsumner: no, not everyone….i don’t deserve all the answers, but i got answers to the ones i needed
Stsumner: study it and i’m sure you will get the answers too
Belldread33: steve, i think this has left us both with a great deal to think about… and I’m not quite sure if 6am is necessarily the best time for continued discussion….but I’m grateful for the conversation, and I’m excited for an indefinite correspondence with you throughout the next long while… with whatever frequency… i will continue to blog, and there will always be an invitation for your thoughts and reactions…take care steve… I’m off
Stsumner: have a good day, thanks for the conversation, hopefully we can do it again….a little philosophy is a good way to start the morning
Auto response from Belldread33: research analysis…
Stsumner signed off at 6:40:01 AM.
Posted by bell at April 14, 2004 06:17 AM | TrackBackTwo of my favorite parts:
"happiness is not the goal, being purposeful is."
Really?
"is it possible the most persistent question in our life should be “how can i serve the most”?"
I wonder.